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Post by The Resister on Sept 21, 2022 2:32:39 GMT
We need a thread about the Bible if we're going to have a forum to discuss religion. You need to look at this thread in the following spirit:
"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25: 2
"9 Debate thy cause with thy neighbour himself; and discover not a secret to another: 10 lest he that heareth it put thee to shame, and thine infamy turn not away." Proverbs 25: 9 and 10
I do not have a monopoly on the truth. I'm only providing a few possibilities on important topics so that we can discuss them and arrive at the most probable answer. Shall we begin? The Bible begins with these words:
"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." When "in the beginning" is was never dated by God. We have all kinds of guesses, depending upon interpretation. According to those that believe in literal "days," they contend that the earth is just over 6,000 years old. Then there are those who have studied the word "day" as used in Genesis and found out that it is just a reference to a space of time. According to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible in the Hebrew Dictionary, the word day as used in Genesis chapter 1 is:
"3117. יוֹם yowm yome ×from an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literal (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figurative (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverb):--age, + always, + chronicals, continually(-ance), daily, ((birth-), each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, × end, + evening, + (for) ever(-lasting, -more), × full, life, as (so) long as (... live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, × required, season, × since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), × whole (+ age), (full) year(-ly), + younger."
The point is, science claims that the earth is millions of years old. Those who cling to the literal translation of the word day to mean a 24 hour day are at odds with history and science. That brings me to today's topic:
In Genesis 1: 24 - 26 (regarding the sixth day) it reads:
"24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creeps on the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
Now skip over to Genesis 2: 4 - 7 and it reads:
"4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
The issue before us is whether or not the "man" of Genesis 1 : 24 - 26 is the same "man" mentioned in Genesis 2: 4 - 7. The man in the first chapter of Genesis was created in the image of God; however, if you believe the second chapter of Genesis is a repeat of the first chapter, it leaves the question open as to why the first man was created and then after the creation, there was "no man to till the ground." Were there TWO different men created? This is very important and we need the answer in order to understand what the Bible is about. Scientists and historians all agree that there were Pre-Adamic people before Adam. So, how do we account for them in the Bible? I'd like to explore that IF there is any interest. Your views?
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Post by weaponoffreedom on Oct 18, 2022 23:07:06 GMT
This is of course, assuming that Genesis is in full chronological order. In regard to Revelation, (as the last chapter as opposed to the first), Revelation is not in chronological order..........but would like to explore further
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professorx
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Post by professorx on Jan 23, 2023 21:50:45 GMT
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Post by The Resister on Jan 24, 2023 21:36:11 GMT
Until weaponoffreedom chimed in, I wondered if there any interest in the topic. Moving along, I'm not offering any definitive statement as to whether or not the "man" of Genesis is the same one of Genesis chapter 2. That topic is open for discussion. Right now, I'd like to say that Genesis is in chronological order. That is how so many Bible scholars have developed the genealogical tables. But, here is a dilemma:
The Bible says that the earth and all the creatures along with mankind were created in the first six "days." That conflicts with science provided that one buys into the narrative that Adam was the first man and Adam man is no more than 7000 years old tops... according to the Genesis account. Right? Well no.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Adam was the first "man" and neither does it say how long ago "man" was created. Honestly, I have no clue nor is there any definitive proof of any of the myriad of theories. But, this is what I would hypothesize (since it is going to be consistent and make sense - even if some day it's factually proven wrong):
"24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." Genesis 1: 24 - 26
On the sixth "day" (see my previous post) or era, God created man. You will notice that I bolded the term beast of the earth and we're going to come back to that later. I found it noteworthy here that this sixth day creation did not receive the "breath of life" as did Adam which led me to believe we might be talking about two very different creations. Let's get into some secular history:
The oldest recorded writings come from the Sumerians. It is believed by some that the writers of the Bible stole the Genesis narrative from the Sumerians. Some historians say that the Sumerians and other civilizations were merely writing about the same event that happened in the Genesis account. It is all cultural perspective. After deep thought and research, I think the Sumerians were writing about the same account as in Genesis. Here is why:
All kinds of archaeologists, scientists and other researchers claim there were "men" that existed anywhere from 120,000 years to millions of years. Yet in every account, Adam was born just over six thousand years ago... which coincides with the time the Sumerians begin writing about history. There is the belief that Adam had a wife before Eve by the name of Lilith. The only mention of her is Isaiah 34:14. IF there is any truth to account, it might explain how there were preAdamites that began the Sumerian civilization. I'm not saying that it explains it; I'm opening the doors of possibilities as we reconcile the Bible with secular history, science and prophecy. As you are about to learn from this thread, there are multiple explanations. I'd like to expand on this before changing gears and ask you to consider something:
According to the AKJV, we had Adam and Eve; later Cain and Abel. Cain slew Abel and then Seth was born to take the place of Abel. According to Genesis chapter 5 those were the only people on earth; however, when we back up to Cain's punishment, he was banished to the land of Nod where he took a wife and built a city. There absolutely HAD to be preAdamites. Other than the Genesis account of creation, we cannot explain earlier civilizations any other way. ONE explanation might be that Adam had offspring by Lilith (IF that account of her existence is true), but it is not the only possibility. I will give you another later. The one thing is, most researchers say that the Sumerians were NOT semitic. That poses a problem for those who believe that all of mankind descended from Adam.
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Post by noclevername on Jan 27, 2023 3:27:55 GMT
It is going to be interesting to see what can be said that makes the AKJV more credible than the writings of the people of Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Sumer. If you have other material that could be looked over don't forget to leave a few links.
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Post by The Resister on Jan 27, 2023 19:43:28 GMT
It is going to be interesting to see what can be said that makes the AKJV more credible than the writings of the people of Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Sumer. If you have other material that could be looked over don't forget to leave a few links. You make a valid point about reference material. Let's move along: A view that is not expounded on in recent years is the " beast of the earth" that God made prior to Adam man. I realize that people get their boxers in a bunch and think if we refer to the beast of the earth as an animal and it would offend the multicultural generation to delve into what earlier generations of Christians believed. I'd like to give you a physical description of some of these "beasts:" " 15 And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and you shall slay the beast. 16 And if a woman approach to any beast, and lie down thereto, you shall kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be on them." Leviticus 20: 15 and 16 Is it usual practice for a human to have sex with an animal? And why would God destroy an animal for the wrongdoing of a human? " 13 there shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount." Exodus 19: 13 " 11 No foot of man shall pass through it, nor foot of beast shall pass through it, neither shall it be inhabited forty years." Ezekiel 29: 11 "7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water: 8 but let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands." Jonah 3: 7 and 8 "10 For before these days there was no hire for man, nor any hire for beast;..." Zechariah 8: 10 (in part) Let's see. This " beast" classification has a hand, a foot, wears sackcloth, cries mightly unto God and can work for hire. It's not sounding like a regular animal to me. 6 " And I will smite the inhabitants of this city, both man and beast: they shall die of a great pestilence." Jeremian 21: 6 Why would God refer to a beast as being the inhabitant of a city? I could multiply Scripture giving even more examples of why the beast of the earth is not an animal, but a pre-Adamic being that peopled the earth before Adam. The point here is that the word beast, in most of these contexts only refers to a living thing. It comes from a Hebrew word, chay and is defined in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible (#2416 in the Hebrew Dictionary) as: "From chayah; alive; hence, raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively -- + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life(-time), live(-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop." In other words, in and of itself, it does not have any negative connotations. I have one more example and then we can discuss why all of this was important as a beginning point for understanding what the Bible is really about.
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Post by The Resister on Jan 28, 2023 16:39:54 GMT
Okay, one more post and I will make my points on this part of the thread. More evidence of pre-Adamite beings is found in the Nephilim. According to Wikipedia: " The Nephilim (/ˈnɛfɪˌlɪm/; Hebrew: נְפִילִים Nəfīlīm) are mysterious beings or people in the Hebrew Bible who are large and strong.[1] The word Nephilim is loosely translated as giants in some translations of the Hebrew Bible, but left untranslated in others. Jewish explanations interpret them as hybrid sons of fallen angels." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim#Fallen_angelsWe know that these " giants" were human like as the Bible states: " The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; the same were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown." Genesis 6: 4 That these giants were " of old" that early in the Genesis account means that they were on earth for a while. Were they fallen angels that took on a human form? I don't know. It's all disputed, but it is just one more valid reason to think that there were pre-Adamic people on earth as a result of God creating them in the eras preceding Adam. Now, the million dollar question: Why should I believe the biblical account versus just the earlier accounts we might find in Sumerian records or maybe those from Mesopotamia? Not all of the accounts are exactly alike, but when we properly identify the people of the Bible, the history, the prophecies and God's promises bear witness to the truth and validity of the biblical version of the event - IF we properly interpret the Bible (meaning allow the Bible to interpret the Bible.) I'm thinking out loud here so bear with me: Historians and archaeologists all say that the Sumerians were not a Semitic people. The modern multicultural view (as well as mainstream " Christians") hold that Adam was the first man and we all descended from Adam. If that were the case, then all people would be of the race of Semites. I want to hypothesize ONE view that may explain what happened ( there are many other views that might be equally valid.) Let us suppose that Adam did have a wife from among the pre-Adamites. She may have been told the story of creation and right now it looks like the Sumerians wrote it down first (even that belief is not without skeptics, BTW.) Anyway, it may have been from among those people that Cain went to the land of Nod to where he took a wife. Now, we have a basic idea of what may have happened and we are ready to look at what the Bible is really about. My presupposition is that the Holy Bible is about a people called Israel. The entire Bible is written to, for and about that one people. Whenever other people are mentioned, it is only how it interrelates to their dealings with Israel. We cannot confuse biblical Israel with Jews as they are two separate and distinct people. Stay tuned. We will look at what the Bible is about and some of the facts that will prove the veracity of this information.
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Post by The Resister on Jan 29, 2023 17:41:48 GMT
THE ABRAHAMIC COVENANTBEFORE I begin my little spiel about God' covenant, I wanted to leave a few links regarding PreAdamites for those who might want to take this seriously. My library is quite extensive, but you have a modern advantate: the Internet. So, you can read the same books I have in my library for free without leaving home. Here is the link to a few freebies: archive.org/details/preadamitesordem00wincialaarchive.org/details/o-brien-thomas-e.-verboten_202012Not free, but relevant: www.amazon.com/Pre-Adamites-Antediluvian-World-That-Then/dp/1716895065/ref=d_pd_vtp_vft_none_sccl_3_3/147-9708768-7221201?pd_rd_w=klW6K&content-id=amzn1.sym.8e065679-52e9-4d16-ae63-fa3d08b93cef&pf_rd_p=8e065679-52e9-4d16-ae63-fa3d08b93cef&pf_rd_r=9ZQ3H0RCP7SVXNZ0ZQNX&pd_rd_wg=uE3TH&pd_rd_r=4363b7dc-5609-450b-a32c-a0e0180e12fe&pd_rd_i=1716895065&psc=1This is not an endorsement of any specific point of view. It simply shows that there are different views about pre-Adamic life. NOW, I will move forward: We will skip over many years of Adam, what happened in the Garden of Eden, and the genealogy of Adam up to the time of Abraham. The Bible declares in Genesis 5: 1 " This is the book of the generations of Adam." It doesn't proclaim to be about any other people. In the 17th chapter of Genesis, Abram has an encounter with the Lord (Yahweh) and the Bible narrative begins: " 17 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. 3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, 4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations." Genesis 17: 1- 4 So, the first part of this covenant is that Abram will be " perfect" and he will be the father of many nations. Abram's name is then changed to Abraham and nations and kings were to come forth from him. 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Genesis 17: 7 From that point, forward, in that chapter of the Bible the terms and purpose of the Abrahamic covenant are spelled out. Yahweh then promises Abraham that his wife, who is 90 years old, will bear children. To back up a bit, previously Sarai, Abraham's wife, was barren and she gave Abraham her handmaid to father children through. God changes the Sarai to Sarah, continues on with talking about this Abrahamic Covenant. Isaac is born; the Abrahamic Covenant is to be established with Isaac and then Yahweh has this to say about Ishmael (Abraham's son via Hagar, Sarai's handmaid): " 19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation." Genesis 17: 19 and 20 I will say more about this everlasting covenant, but for now it should be said that the covenant was an everlasting one so it should still be in effect. It establishes what the Bible is about. WHO the people of the Bible are is extremely important since it is the subject of the Bible. If you want to skip ahead and not wait for me to give more Cliff's Notes, you might want the whole story. Follow the links: archive.org/details/abrahamic-covenant/page/n1/mode/2uparchive.org/details/TheGreatestLoveStoryNeverToldPart1-4/TheGreatestLoveStoryNeverTold-1-peters.mp3If you access the links, please give them due consideration as we progress along.
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Post by The Resister on Jan 31, 2023 20:01:56 GMT
Moving along, maybe that day off gave you time to access and read a few of the links. Hopefully you read the following link about the Abrahamic Covenant:
archive.org/details/abrahamic-covenant/page/n1/mode/2up
I'm not one to keep reinventing the wheel, so we can presuppose that you read that link. Here is what I would like to add:
In Genesis 17: 1 Yahweh told Abram "be thou perfect." In allowing the Bible to interpret the Bible, I wondered what that meant. The gist of the Abrahamic Covenant narrative is that God promises Abraham that he will be the father of many nations. He separates Ishmael from this covenant and Ishmael is given a separate destiny. Most historians and Bible scholars agree that the descendants of Ishmael became the Arabic people. They are no longer dealt with in the Bible except to the extent that they interacted with the biblical Israelites. To get back to the point, there was another Scripture that led me to study this years ago:
"9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God." Genesis 6: 9
Most Christians realize that NO mortal man is perfect in this life. Even Adam man sinned and the Bible teaches us that ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God (Romans3: 23) and that applies to Noah... and it applied to Abram... so what does that term mean? In Genesis Chapter 1 there is the way that God created all life: kind after like kind, seed in itself. It is mentioned at least ten times in that chapter. We've discussed the fact that there were pre-Adamites. And, so, my second presupposition in this thread is that when God formed (as differentiated from created) Adam and put in him the breath of life and Adam became a living soul, then Adam's lineage became a specific kind. In Noah's time people were mixing with the giants in the earth; however, Noah was perfect in his generations and, consequently, when you get to Abram, he was "perfect" meaning that his seed had not intermixed with the pre-Adamites.
We will cover the other covenants and more about these descendants of which the Bible says:
2 and I (Yahweh) will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3 and I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. Genesis 12: 2
What nation became a great nation? In Genesis 35: 11 It reads:
"11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;"
Every time God repeated his promises of the everlasting covenant, he spoke of the lineage of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob / Israel. If you're reading the links, you already know what this is about.
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Post by The Resister on Feb 2, 2023 22:03:15 GMT
There are several major covenants in the Bible. We are focused on the Abrahamic Covenant which was to be an everlasting covenant. Covenants were also made with Noah and there was the covenant made with Moses. I plan on trying to cover them in a future thread, but for now I want to remind everyone that the Abrahamic is an unconditional covenant.
Sarah, Abraham's wife, bore him a son named Isaac. (Genesis 21: 2 ) Isaac, in turn had two sons: Jacob and Esau. (See Genesis Chapter 25) God told Rebekah, Isaac's wife, that two nations were inside her womb. From these two, God chose Isaac to be the inheritors of the Abrahamic Covenant. Esau was despised by God and Esau married a Canaanite (which ended any connection he might have had to the Abrahamic Covenant.) God renamed Jacob and he became Israel. Jacob / Israel fathered twelve sons by four different women. Those sons were:
Reuben Simeon Levi Judah Dan Napthali Gad Asher Issachar Zebulun Joseph Benjamin
Those were known as the TRIBES of Israel. This is the people of the Bible. It is to whom the Bible is written to, for, and about. The New Testament puts it this way:
"4 who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. 6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:" Romans 9: 4 - 6
Note that the covenants (that is plural) were given to the Israelites and that includes, but is not limited to the Abrahamic Covenant and the New Covenant (aka New Testament.) Additionally, not everybody that is related to Israel is Israel. Those with a biological connection, but are a byproduct of intermarriage to those God commanded Israel NOT to intermarry with, are excluded from this relationship. Okay, one more posting and that will end the first of this series of Bible Basics...
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